Forum:2013-03-08 (Friday)
Discussion for comic for . ( ) ---- Hoo boy! Agatha is not going to be happy with the Baron when she finds out about that! Jagerdraught Braumeister (talk) 08:59, March 8, 2013 (UTC) : But we have no idea what was done. If Gil isn't wasped the Baron didn't need to adjust Gil, only convince Gil that Agatha would be killed if she didn't get out of the Baron's way. Argadi (talk) 13:02, March 8, 2013 (UTC) : And now we have almost certain proof that Gil is being controlled somehow, and the inexcusible behaviour can be explained. Also, it explains why he tripped just then. I mean, you can count on one hand the times he has had a clumsy moment. HeterodyneGirl (talk) 14:05, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :: When you get right down to it, HeterodyneGirl, everyone is being controlled by the Baron, to some extent, one way or another. That's what he does. NathanTheRammer (talk) 15:54, March 8, 2013 (UTC) ::: What I meant was, he was being forcibly controlled, not just persuaded. There is, after all, a difference between being convinced that something is right, and having an invasive process bending your mind, body, and will into proceding as if it were. HeterodyneGirl (talk) 18:19, March 8, 2013 (UTC) Come, come, friends. You trust the Baron? You take him at his word? We know he is capable of playing very complex games, telling one person one thing and others another. It sure sounds to me like he (the underlying Baron persona that is not wasped but knows that the Baron is wasped - the same persona that managed to tell the story that communicated that the Baron is wasped) is working his way to a situation where the Empire is controlled by a non-wasped Wulfenbach. So he has persuaded several key people (including the wasped Baron persona) that Gil is wasped, himself knowing that Gil isn't. He has then persuaded several key people that Gil is under the Baron's control, himself knowing what Gil's true motivations will be and predicting what Gil's actions will be. He's balancing many competing forces (the general staff, the Other's control over him, Gil, Agatha) to achieve his actual goals. This is what the Baron is world-class at, after all. -- NathanTheRammer (talk) 15:51, March 8, 2013 (UTC) : You know, I think you've got something there. It will take awhile before we find out how close you are, but I think you've summed it up nicely. AndyAB99 (talk) 17:53, March 8, 2013 (UTC) ::I think that I will stick to my theory that Klaus was telling the truth about Gil when he said that Gil had been wasped while he was in Paris. The trouble with that though, is that he has been imprinted on Zola--a very nasty individual whose mind is now infected with a copy of Lucrezia. -- Billy Catringer (talk) 22:10, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :::It has been argued (quite strongly in fact) on other fan sites that Zola does not have "command voice". I hold that she did not have that ability in Paris, but may have it now as she is "hosting" Lucrezia. Also, Gil ignored commands from BOTH Agatha and Zola in Castle Heterodyne. (Personally, I think the "imprinting" thing is not as important as some feel it is). AndyAB99 (talk) 23:25, March 8, 2013 (UTC) ::::And so we can explain Gil's rather subservient behavior towards Zola, how? He repeatedly embarrassed himself in the presence of Agatha when they were playing hide-and-go-fix in the Castle. He even attacked Tarvek when Tavek was about to kill Zola. How do we explain that? -- Billy Catringer (talk) 03:00, March 9, 2013 (UTC) :::::'' ''I thought Tarvek explained that. Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't see it. Eventually we will find out. AndyAB99 (talk) 11:29, March 9, 2013 (UTC) ::::::Given that we are talking about a story being written by someone else, I am sure that we will, but be advised, it may well take a long time. I do appreciate your courtesy during our rather minor disagreement. You are as much entitled to your opinion as I am mine. BTW, have you noticed that very odd shaped shadow on the Baraon's back? It is as if something dangerous is looming between him and the light. -- Billy Catringer (talk) 13:25, March 9, 2013 (UTC) : So, are you suggesing that the Baron has some kind of multi-personality thing going on? A "Wasped Baron" and a "True Baron"? And if so, what's the control situation? Is the Wasped Baron in control of functions, with the True Baron playing puppetmaster unnoticed in the shadows? Or, does control switch between the two personas? And if so, would True Baron still have to obey Lu's orders while in control? Is Wasped Baron aware of True's presence, and if so, can/will he tell? Is there even a multi-personality thing, or are you jsut saying that the Baron is still in there, and he's refusing to play Lu's game all the way? He's a strong enough Spark, he could probably resist enough to do all this trickery that you suggest, and I agree he probably is doing at least some of it. HeterodyneGirl (talk) 18:19, March 8, 2013 (UTC) : Great questions, and we all get to guess at the answers. All we really have to go on is the Baron's behavior, especially around the time . My own guesses would be that control does not really switch; the wasped Baron is always in control, and does not know the unwasped Baron exists. But the unwasped Baron occasionally can influence the wasped Baron to do things that the wasped Baron does not realize are against his interests. Although other interpretations are possible that don't involve two personas, but just involve someone under orders he physically cannot disobey still finding ways to manipulate the situation so that doing what he really wants to do winds up being compatible with the orders. NathanTheRammer (talk) 20:38, March 8, 2013 (UTC) :: This reminds me of a plot point in one of Greg Egan's novels (spoiler alert). The protagonist has a neural mod that compels him to be loyal to the Ensemble. He eventually realizes that he's more loyal to the Ensemble than its leaders are (after all, they don't have the mod), and therefore he shouldn't blindly follow their orders—which frees him to do whatever he wants, since the mod isn't specific about what the Ensemble actually is. No dual personality required. 02:56, March 9, 2013 (UTC) : At this point, I'm just waiting for Klaus to reveal himself as Light Yagami. Mskala (talk) 21:00, March 8, 2013 (UTC) : It occurs to me that while his underlings think he's talking about Gil, perhaps he's actually talking about himself. Luckyblackcat (talk) 07:02, March 9, 2013 (UTC) : My thinking on the matter of wasping is we know that Klaus is wasped, but a weasle possibly cant detect a wasp meant for a spark , but then it wouldnt react to Gill as he is also a spark. I think the Baron has a trained weasle that squeels on command. Agathahetrodyne (talk) 17:28, March 9, 2013 (UTC) :: I totally agree that The Baron has a weasel that squeals on command. As to the normal weasels and a spark wasp. That's unclear, but the -- Br'fin (talk) 20:17, March 9, 2013 (UTC) :Something we may be forgetting is that the Baron while being a Spark is important the other fact we may need to think about is the fact he's a construct. That may interfere with the process. He's made of three brothers after all. Lwave (talk) 00:23, March 11, 2013 (UTC) :Nathan, I too think you're on the right track in thinking the Baron is trying to manipulate the situation toward having an unwasped Wulfenbach (Gil) in charge. But I don't think a split personality is needed to explain it. Klaus is fully aware he's wasped (Lucrezia told him as much), very much pissed off about it, and acting in character as much as he possibly can within the constraints of wasped-ness. He can't tell anyone else about it, he can't disobey a direct order from the Other, he probably can't work directly for the overthrow of the Other or for his own overthrow. In fact, it just occurred to me that he's probably bound by something similar to Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics. He can't injure the Other, he must obey her in all except to injure her, and he must preserve himself as long as he doesn't hurt or disobey her. Except, he's very very smart and consciously trying to undermine his wasped predicament, and the areas in which he's smarter than the Other probably give him the elbow room he needs. Tarvek (talk) 05:18, March 11, 2013 (UTC) :And just because, its amusing to see the good Doctor again, why we haven't seen him about Castle Wulfenbach since waaaay back -- Br'fin (talk) 12:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)